House of Lords, Wednesday, October 13th, 1999, Moses Room
Apologies - Minute Sec. recorded 6 apologies
Present : Sabine McNeill [Co-ordinator]; Donald Martin
[Chairman]; Lord Sudeley [Host]; Lord Ahmed [Host];
David Pidcock [Speaker]; Canon Peter Challen [Minute
Secretary]; Dr. John Courtneidge; Sylvia; Scott Barnsworth
(Lawyer); Keith Whincup [SAFE]; Jenny Savage [SAFE];
Maurice Blackburn: Elizabeth Harper; Abdallah Homouda;
Lawrence Bloom; Shaheen; Hugh Harris [LETS]; Shard Duhart ;
Helene Durval; Robert Arnold [BAMR}; T.G.Dickinson [BAMR]; Uta
Grieser; Peter Koenig ; David Schoibl; Gerard Hanratty ;
Lilly Evans; Francoise Dellacotte; M Loram ; M A Ghanem; Mary
Fee [LETSLINK London]; Ken Costello [SAFE]; Bruce Ross [SAFE]; Tim Lawson-Cruttenden
[Lawyer] ; Vic Tassell [SAFE] ; Mr. Leachman [SAFE] (35)
1. Reminder of widening context in which we are debating
& exploring :-
a. 'Money is to be the servant not the master of humanity.'
b. 'Banks' abilities to create money out of nothing must be curtailed.'
c. 'Governments need to take responsibility for the Money Supply
to ensure its value.'
2. Comments on notes of last mtg. No written comments
had been submitted. We are committed in this Hof Lords Forum
to searching for the language for a Banking Bill
as a campaigning document.
Sabine introduced the Speaker, quoting from Goethe,
'There is magic in every beginning that protects us and helps us to live',
reminding us of how usury has vanished from economic studies. To raise the money
debate again bridges the political divide and sets a hopeful new agenda for the
3. 'THE CRIME OF USURY AND PRACTICE OF
ISLAMIC BANKING' David Pidcock, Fdr of the Islamic Party in Britain and National
Association of Victims of Fraud.
David presented a strong, detailed and erudite history of usury and the profound
struggles to retain its significance in economic and financial matters.
Great protagonists had run into immense
opposition and had often died for the cause. The mechanisms of
usury are now deep in all banking conventions. He emphasised the Basle
Convention of 1922 -'a bank cannot call itself a bank unless it charges
interest', and the strong hold this has on banking practice.
His references to the support for the forbidding of usury spanned
religious, philosophical and economic history, identified the opposition and the
cost, concluding that the 'usurers are in charge' creating a situation where
'the petty thief is hanged by the greater
thief''. We are subjected to mortgage (death grip) by degrees as the usurers are
feeding and fattening amongst starvation in the midst of abundance. 'Usury
is the Goliath, we must be the David',
otherwise we will witness 'the Bosnification of the Planet.'
His arguments arose from the authority of religious traditions, but also
presented the intrinsic dangers of usury to human economic activity, making the
matter of significance to believers and agnostics alike.
Islamic banking was not very genuine under the pressures of Western banking
and represented ' Halal windows in Haram Palaces' ; but the principle was
recognised, and there had to be a rapid and energetic promotion of the evidence
from Ricardo, Abraham Lincoln, the Island of Guernsey, Malaysia, Pakistan etc of
the nature of the system we must create- against the present situation where
Maastricht states that the banks can in effect appoint governments. It is
important to differentiate between loans and investment. It was emphasised
that the one biblical exception to the forbidding of usury was its use against
the stranger 'without', ie as as a weapon against enemies.
Money is an an act of faith, which has been used to fuel economic
growth and to create a national identity, but that role is now changing rapidly
and the debate as to its appropriate creation and distribution is urgent and
DISCUSSION followed on what is THE CORRECT
BASIS ON WHICH MONEY IS CREATED AND DISTRIBUTED and how we might educate
ourselves and others and influence the
government. There were other important matters identified and examined,
that are not expanded here. They will be noted in relation to future evidence
presented by expert witnesses in the months ahead. The discussion helped
to identify aspects of a Banking Bill to be prepared in the months ahead......
a) To seek to make all bank loans term loans, to end the haunting
effects of short term loans 'repayable on demand'
b) To protect homes against bank recoveries.
c) To revisit the Basle convention and examine the significance of a Judicial
Review of its standing in both law and received wisdom.
d) To elaborate more thoroughly the principles of Islamic banking.
4. DRAFTING A BANKING BILL. Sabine outlined Lord Caithness'
suggestions for drafting a Bill and was offered support by Tim
Lawson-Cruttenden, a 'harrassment lawyer' who has defended many bank
victims so far. The points of principle will be developed as we get the help
from the experts we are seeking to attract and from any who attend, who have
expertise to add. It might take the gentle title of "Banking
2000 - Miscellaneous Provisions".
5. BRIEFING MATERIALS FOR
PARLIAMENTARIANS. Lord Sudeley outlined the contents of the
Monday Club publication he will publish in December, with contributions from
JohnTomlinson, Lord Beswick, Lord Caithness, Sabine McNeill, Austin
Mitchell MP and himself, with a bibliogrpaphy. Video recordings of these
meetings are being made as the cheapest and most alive and effective way of
6.STEERING COMMITTEE, ADVISORY PANEL AND ACTION PLAN.
Following a meeting in Lawrence Bloom's office, this structure is now in place.
Advice, names etc welcomed that help to raise the standing of the Forum and its
7. SUBMISSION TO SELECT COMMITTEES. Sabine reported her work on the two committees
at the HoL and the HoC, differentiating the evidence submitted to each body.
Reports were given on other meetings where the debate continues:-
- - Second Thursday of Month Meetings at the Debtors'
Prison in Clink Street, SE1. 7 minutes from London Bdge Sta. focusing on
the Campaign for Interest Free Money, and interpreting the discussion in a
model of local Authority initiatives in Social Investment.
November 11th 8th 6-8.
- - Weekly Meetings @ the Global Café, 15 Golden Square continues - all
welcome. Discussions start where newcomers are on monetary reform in general or
particular and develop the dialogue patiently.
-- The Iona to London Poverty Pilgrimage reaches Lambeth at 12 on Oct 17th and
welcomes those who would join the last stage to Trafalgar Sq.
9. Date of next meeting as at top of these notes.
PS. Sabine received a phone call from Robert Owen who attended previously. He
managed to get a SUMMONS issued against the Chairman of Barclay's andagainst
Barclay's for the CRIMINAL offense of FORGERY. His evidence contains an ITN
video of the Mayor's lunch proving the bias of the Judge. The hearing is
scheduled for Wednesday next week, but the time won't be known till the day
before. Barclay's are known to be the worst bank.
For further information, please email jaro2000Xtinyonline.co.uk